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Xelindrya
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Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Spinoff from the same sex marriage...
I ask this as an Agnostic who isnt trying to tease, judge or convert. But as a question of curiousity and in the pursuit to know more...
Although I admit it's been awhile since I picked up the good book, my Pedecostal upbringing seems to recall no mention anywhere in the book itself that directly quotes Thou shalt not do the nasty before marriage.. nor does it say Thou shalt not prevent pregnancy. Both subjects to me are good faith followings of the community of the church not so much the 'word of god'.
Unless someone can point the Chapter and Verse to me which I will then GLADLY admit my error..
Discussion anyone? Not that I think any will reply.. but its worth asking.
Oh while youre at it.. can someone please look up the word Fornication in the bible and actually COUNT the number of times it's used. Last time I checked was in college and I spent the whole evening with the book and only found it once.. and it basically pointed to the idea if a man found his woman to have 'fornicated' prior to marriage he could throw her out and wasn't responsible for her .. nothing about it being a sin.
(PS: should add I don't think it was a catholic bible, but I can't be sure. Catholic bibles I read always seem different..dunno why - yet another question)
ETA: I still think holding off before marriage is a VERY good idea!! Just why make it a religious thing?
But I am all for birth control if nothing else because it makes that duty of our (women) less annoying, long and painful. As far as using it as a free pass to hump every man who catches your eye.. no I disagree with that use. I mean the pill doesnt exactly stop STDs (not save the dates), does it?
Message edited 5/18/2004 1:37:37 PM.
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Posted 5/18/04 1:33 PM 
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BMD'sPeanut
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
that's a fairly meaty question, but i will take on the last part -about the bible...
as far as i know there are many versions of the bible...(or should we say interpretations of)
isn't that what different religions (or at least sects) are based on?
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Posted 5/18/04 1:42 PM
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Xelindrya
Goodbye Sparky-love you
Member since 7/03 7864 total posts
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10/23/2004 11:30 AM
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by BMD'sPeanut
that's a fairly meaty question, but I will take on the last part -about the bible...
as far as i know there are many versions of the bible...(or should we say interpretations of)
isn't that what different religions (or at least sects) are based on?
Hrmm, but don't almost all religions that follow 'the bible' believe that the 'bible' is the "Word" of Christ & God? I mean wasn't there only 12 disciples? I mean how can there be such a wide range of variation if they are all based on the same story?
And if they differ, which one is most close to being 'right' (not which is wrong) and how could you prove it without a shadow of a doubt??
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Posted 5/18/04 1:50 PM
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BMD'sPeanut
Rock The Casbah!
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by Xelindrya
Hrmm, but don't almost all religions that follow 'the bible' believe that the 'bible' is the "Word" of Christ & God? I mean wasn't there only 12 disciples? I mean how can there be such a wide range of variation if they are all based on the same story?
And if they differ, which one is most close to being 'right' (not which is wrong) and how could you prove it without a shadow of a doubt??
aren't we provocative today...
there are different versions of the bible...yes, they all basically have the same teachings but with slight variations, i guess...
i don't know how to prove which is right or wrong, or even if you can...i imagine that comes down to having faith in whichever religion it is that you practice...faith is believeing what you can't see...
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Posted 5/18/04 1:57 PM
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Xelindrya
Goodbye Sparky-love you
Member since 7/03 7864 total posts
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10/23/2004 11:30 AM
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by BMD'sPeanut
aren't we provocative today...
 Im always curious about religion..
Just mostly folks get nasty about it with me. Thanks for your clear and calm replies though!
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Posted 5/18/04 2:00 PM
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BMD'sPeanut
Rock The Casbah!
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by Xelindrya
Posted by BMD'sPeanut
aren't we provocative today...
Im always curious about religion..
Just mostly folks get nasty about it with me. Thanks for your clear and calm replies though!
i try to be a clear and calm kind of person. and i also refrain from answering questions that i am not 100% confident i know the answer to.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:03 PM
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lilmrs
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Message edited 5/25/2004 11:37:51 AM.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:04 PM
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kel2004
"I'm Addicted"
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
The Bible, specifically the New Testament, was written many years after Jesus' death, so there are bound to be different versions and interpretations.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:10 PM
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Xelindrya
Goodbye Sparky-love you
Member since 7/03 7864 total posts
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10/23/2004 11:30 AM
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by kel2004
The Bible, specifically the New Testament, was written many years after Jesus' death, so there are bound to be different versions and interpretations.
Yet everytime I try to say that to "some people" I get resentment and anger. I was actually told once by a Witness (which doesnt mean all agree with her, just her words to me) that because I question if the Bible is valid as a whole (all interpretations) that I could not be accepted as a Christian because all Christians believe in the bible.
It's that type of quick judgement I live with. I've gotten used to it. And it's also the thing that keeps me farther and farther away from organzied religion.
Still putting all separation of religion aside. MOST believe in this idea of purity before marriage ... While usually it's generally accepted the Catholics most support the lack of birth control - god's will. Either way I've yet to see biblical proof for either arguement although both are quick to say they only follow the word of the bible.
So.
Show it to me.
The only religion I've personally crossed that withholds information or rights from the general public curiousity is the Morons who would not allow me into a temple without baptism in their faith and years of service, even then I am only female. They even asked once to have me remove a dragon necklace that was under my shirt and couldnt be seen because they just 'knew' it was there and didnt like the idea of me wearing it in church (which I readily agreed to, since it wasnt my church).
Otherwise I am constantly frustrated with the very little amount of information available to the average Joe. This is a major concern as I promise to raise my children to follow some faith before allowing them to make their own choices, as my father did me.
Message edited 5/18/2004 2:19:25 PM.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:17 PM
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OctGroom
If I only had a brain....
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Great question.. I like the way you think X and look for answers. We may agree on about 5 things out of 20.. but I respect ya. 
Who knows.. could be 15 out of 20......
I'll try to give you an answer but you'll have to bare with me... Allrighty.... this is my theory.. probably not endorsed by any church. LOL 
Jesus taught that people need to put God first in their lives.. to live lives of service and to bring love and goodness to all.. even those who don't believe in the same thing.
Jesus went as far as to be in the company of tax collectors, prostitutes, even the Romans.
But His message was that we love everybody.
He says to a particular guy in the Bible who's rich to sell everything he has to come and follow Him. The man walks away in disbelief and Jesus says that in effect you can't put anything first in your life except God.
That means everything.. money.. sex.. power. All things that would take away from focusing one's life on God. He says that one cannot serve more than one master.
Even in the early Church, sex was frowned down upon except for pro-creation. The meaning upon this was center one's life on Christ and do everything to imitiate Him.
Weddings were necessary to preserve the human race.. and since Christ went to a wedding as it says in the Bible.. I guess the Church said.. OK.. we can live with the sex in a marriage but outside of it.. people might stray from God and thus would not be imitating Christ or following His teachings.
Christ commands followers to be pure in heart and act as little children do. As we know, children have no knowledge of sex.
So I guess that people look at Christ and in trying to imitate Him.. they believe that they should do as Jesus does. Jesus never slept around. Neither should His followers. But he went to a wedding. See what I mean?
I'm afraid I would be a poor preacher.. LOL
As for birth control.. I don't know if that was even a thought in Jesus' day. But again.. it's the same thinking.. would Jesus do that?
I hope this helps. I'm a Catholic who used to be really good but I've stumbled in my latter years.. though I do keep on praying. 
I really hope this helped/made sense.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:21 PM
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BMD'sPeanut
Rock The Casbah!
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Hi Kate.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:24 PM
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kel2004
"I'm Addicted"
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by OctGroom
Jesus taught that people need to put God first in their lives.. to live lives of service and to bring love and goodness to all.. even those who don't believe in the same thing.
Jesus went as far as to be in the company of tax collectors, prostitutes, even the Romans.
But His message was that we love everybody.
He says to a particular guy in the Bible who's rich to sell everything he has to come and follow Him. The man walks away in disbelief and Jesus says that in effect you can't put anything first in your life except God.
That means everything.. money.. sex.. power. All things that would take away from focusing one's life on God. He says that one cannot serve more than one master.
Even in the early Church, sex was frowned down upon except for pro-creation. The meaning upon this was center one's life on Christ and do everything to imitiate Him.
Weddings were necessary to preserve the human race.. and since Christ went to a wedding as it says in the Bible.. I guess the Church said.. OK.. we can live with the sex in a marriage but outside of it.. people might stray from God and thus would not be imitating Christ or following His teachings.
Christ commands followers to be pure in heart and act as little children do. As we know, children have no knowledge of sex.
So I guess that people look at Christ and in trying to imitate Him.. they believe that they should do as Jesus does. Jesus never slept around. Neither should His followers. But he went to a wedding. See what I mean?
I'm afraid I would be a poor preacher.. LOL
As for birth control.. I don't know if that was even a thought in Jesus' day. But again.. it's the same thinking.. would Jesus do that?
I hope this helps. I'm a Catholic who used to be really good but I've stumbled in my latter years.. though I do keep on praying.
I really hope this helped/made sense.
I think this is an excellent explanation. I also think that Christians believe in more than the Bible, and some believe in it more literally than others. Some think every story actually happened, while others believe some stories are metaphors, meant to teach principles.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:29 PM
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endlessluv429
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
I never get involved in these discussions, but I feel I must say my piece! So here goes, not trying to be defensive or judgemental, just stating what I believe to be true-not what I demand others must think is true! I am a Christian (not Catholic) my church does not think birth control is bad. God designed sex to be the most intimate thing between a husband and wife. A verse speaking about this is
"Honor marriage, and guard the sacredness of sexual intimacy between
wife and husband. God draws a firm line against casual and illicit sex."
Hebrews 13:4
Message edited 5/18/2004 2:32:04 PM.
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Posted 5/18/04 2:30 PM
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kel2004
"I'm Addicted"
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by BMD'sPeanut
Hi Kate.
Hi Peanut! Some serious topics today... 
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Posted 5/18/04 2:30 PM
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BMD'sPeanut
Rock The Casbah!
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by endlessluv429
"Honor marriage, and guard the sacredness of sexual intimacy between
wife and husband. God draws a firm line against casual and illicit sex."
Hebrews 13:4
so based on this quote you've written here, can one assume that whatever it is your religion is, is against homosexual marriage-being that it's clearly stating this with regards to wife and husband?
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Posted 5/18/04 2:35 PM
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Xelindrya
Goodbye Sparky-love you
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Sorry to sound rude.. but that's not what I read in Hebrews 13:4
I read:
13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge
I wasnt talking adultry and I think 'undefiled' can mean beastiality and a number of other things.. a pure bed doesnt mean the woman is a virgin just as nothing in the book says a man has to be a virgin to wed either. Talk about sexist there. I don't believe "God" as those who believe him can be sexist. Since after all..
We are all created equal? right?
Still I saw nothing about Husband and Wife but I'll keep looking.
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Posted 5/18/04 4:30 PM
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Xelindrya
Goodbye Sparky-love you
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Yet another 'intreptation"
4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
You know.. I've always believed the bible to be a good intented guideline.. but it's stuff like this that hammers in the point of man's influence on the word and how it can no longer be considered totally true. If you dig a little you'll find factual documents that state priests themselves sat to re-write the book to make it less massive and more easily readable for the laymen. They put in the teachings they wished the public to follow for the 'Church'.
..........
Still looking for your version though..
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Posted 5/18/04 4:33 PM
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kgermano
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Good Times!! I always love a good debate. So I have to give my opinion and that is all it is. I don't claim to know facts.
I do not believe in the bible, I feel that it is a book that was written thousands of years ago. Then over time rewritten. All these times it was proably altered here and there according to the writers personal beliefs. I just feel that since there are different versions and such that people must have been taking "creative license"-know what I mean?
That being said I consider myself a very spiritual person. I pray everynight and I thank God for all that I am blessed with. But I still will not be married in or step into a Catholic church. I can't be married somewhere that I feel I am being judged for things like premarital sex, birth control, and living with my fiance. I am however being married in a Lutheran church, I don't know everything about this particular religion, but I do know that I felt so comfortable here. Will I go to church here every Sunday, I dont know?
Sometimes I feel as though I will never be truly comfortable in an organized religion. We shall see...I seem to have rambled...
Kristy
ETA: I am absolutely fascinated by other religions (other being anything not catholic since I was immersed in this while growing up) any good book book recommendations on religious customs!
Message edited 5/18/2004 5:11:09 PM.
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Posted 5/18/04 5:09 PM
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LovelyL
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
I believe in God, but am not a big fan of organized religion or the bible. Like someone just said, it was written thousands of years ago and re-written and re-written!
Not only that, it was not written by God or Jesus themselves. It was written by mortals, passing on God's word. No matter how faithful or religious these indiviuduals were---they are still only humans. Therefore, I believe through human error--including emotions and motivations---everything was not recorded word for word.
And how come no women writers? I'm sure they would have a different way of telling the story. 
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Posted 5/18/04 8:15 PM
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dm24angel
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by LovelyL
I believe in God, but am not a big fan of organized religion or the bible. Like someone just said, it was written thousands of years ago and re-written and re-written!
Not only that, it was not written by God or Jesus themselves. It was written by mortals, passing on God's word. No matter how faithful or religious these indiviuduals were---they are still only humans. Therefore, I believe through human error--including emotions and motivations---everything was not recorded word for word.
And how come no women writers? I'm sure they would have a different way of telling the story.
LOL.....Nice view...I agree....I think most of us who have studied/read on the bible, its origins etc must fall into the category that things are written in the language of the times, and people ( with all their faith intact) must understand things are never black and white, and FAITH is an inner feeling and peacefulness NOT following something because you WANT to be of faith by doing so...
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Posted 5/18/04 8:57 PM
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MrsBrad
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Here is what I have from a quick search - I could go more in depth later.
Acts 15:20: Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Romans 13:13: Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy.
1 Corinthians 6:13: "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"–but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
1 Corinthians 6:18: Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
Ephesians 5:3: But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
The word "fornication" is found 35 times in the King James Version. Fornication is also translated as "sexual immorality" in the New King James and New International Versions.
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Posted 5/18/04 11:34 PM
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Xelindrya
Goodbye Sparky-love you
Member since 7/03 7864 total posts
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10/23/2004 11:30 AM
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Re: Yet another Controversay topic today: God vs Bible.... RE: Birth Control and pre-martial sex
Posted by MrsBrad
The word "fornication" is found 35 times in the King James Version. Fornication is also translated as "sexual immorality" in the New King James and New International Versions.
There's a development.. From one bible that says it only once.. to another which defines it.
Sexually Immoral.. I have issues with this term. It reminds me of the idea of "Newspeak" in 1984. The church makes up values to follow which "God" has said but takes them a bit too far. For the good of man I might add. Sex with Sheep is bad, Wild free for all sex with everyone who's handy is bad, Sex without committment or virtue is bad, Sex without committment to God in the relationship (according to this) is bad, Sex outside the wedding bed is defiling the bed of marriage and is bad.
Still although it says it's bad.. and I agree with that.. it doesnt agrue that by having sex before marriage no matter how much you love and cherish God and your partner, no matter how much you are monogamous (which was a rarity back then) to that partner, you are somehow a 'sinner'. I 'intrepret' this to mean don't be a whore... and I say that to mean it's normally directed to women. But men too must at the very least honor the WEDDING bed, but no so much the before, just don't get immoral and nasty, be true to God and put him first.
Heck that's almost an open invitation to Greek Orgies if the bible didnt 'happen' to spell it out not to do that. Did God know about orgies when the bible was writen, I doubt it. That's a man made thing that the 'Church' wanted very much to stifle (which I agree to). If you take it literally, God and church (christ) come first before ALL during your entire life span. All else is not quite sin but 'distraction' from the Lord and you should try to resist while at the same time "Go forth and Multiply".
This is, obviously, one of the most important issues of the Bible that I find so very murky and confused by the obvious interference of man (priests) and their bias opinions and interepretations of a God I was raised to believe was fair and equal to all.
I think my biggest problem is half the time the Bible is directly opposite of my basic beliefs.
Be good, do good, think well, do onto others, keep your mind on the big picture spiritually at all times - not just when it's something you want, appreciate the life you have and the things you have, don't ask for more, you can't run your life its been planned you can only hope to do well in your assigned path, keep a look out for pitfalls, repent those wrong doings and try to share with others the value of constantly keeping an inner peace and open mind, realize others are happy with their beliefs and honor them, learn from others and try to pry out more information - you never know what you may find.
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Posted 5/19/04 9:58 AM
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